Wilhelm Reich and orgone provided by PORE = Public Orgonomic Research Exchange ---- © Copyright 1995-2005
** last update (2005 Aug 7)

Bill: You have to be patient. I have a very structured background. (laughter)

Student a: Part of the air streams...the energy streams that Wilhelm Reich, ...that he spoke of, one went southwest to northeast and he also said there was one going from south to north merging in New England.

Bill: What about that south to north air stream? Eva?

Eva: *In the desert, if* we would divert the stream, it got deflected. *It is erratic within the desert "barrier" and* it would go any old way including south to north.

Bill: Was that in Contact....? (Contact with Space)

Eva: *This report is on the WR -35mm microfilms: to read on OROP desert Ea.* That was an abnormality. It shouldn't be. In other words for nice healthy weather supposedly, the energy envelope was west to east. Any time it is going south to north, something is wrong. *In the desert the flow is erratic, confused.*

Student a: What about the one that is going southwest to northeast?

Bill: The Galactic?

Student a: Yes, the galactic stream.

Bill: Yeah, that is...Go ahead Eva that is your specialty.

Eva: That is, according to Dr. Reich's own theory, around the earth there is a west to east envelope. The whole earth, however, floats in the galactic energy stream. *This energy field moves faster than the earth's surface. This differs from previous ideas about "Ether Drag".* Consequently, they have an influence in the direction of the galactic in which the earth is at a 62 degree angle to the equatorial plane. And consequently, that direction can also be treated and used. But in most cloudbusting that we did, the attempt was to reverse the west to east to an east to west. *This reversal can be seen with binoculars looking north or southward. This works only in the northern hemisphere.* We worked with the equatorial stream. Then Dr. Reich developed some other operations that involved the galactic direction, which worked on the east coast(USA) with storms traveling on a certain storm track up the coast. *In Australia's southern hemisphere, in Perth WA, the ocean was to west and southwest of land. West to east flow brought desert, DOR atmosphere; while east to west orgone flow brought moisture and wet cumulus clouds.*

Student a: You have two jet streams as well that seem to be the same direction on the continents that jets use. They use one from west to east.

Bill: Now those jet streams would not necessarily be orgone energy streams?

Student a: No, not necessarily. I wonder what the relation would be to it though.

Bill: I don't know.

Student b: Do the jets affect the orgone energy?

Bill: I don't know.

Eva: *De Meo knows a lot more in 1990s than we did on this subject in the 1950s.* We do know this, that at the time that we were working in Arizona, the jet stream moved. When you do something with the orgone energy the jet stream is affected. The jet stream follows, I think, changes in the orgone energy.

Bill: Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure of that.

Eva: Like all weather fronts follow the preceding change in the orgone potential.

Bill: Wind directions etc. will become an after effect after the orgone energy stream is affected. Then come the winds. It's a secondary manifestation of that.

Student a: When I came up from Puerto Rico, they used a jet stream to come up along the east coast that saves them a little time. And also from California, the jets use jet streams...

Bill: Yes, there is undoubtedly a relationship between the two. The thing is the jet streams as far as I know..... You have influenced the orgone energy streams and the jet streams will change. That's what the relationship is with the jet streams. That is a beautiful unexplored problem that you can devote your life to. (laughter) The whole thing is a relation.... This boredom of the youth, etc., .... Contrary to.... A lot of people think the feeling that everything's been found out, that there's nothing more to learn. It's really...all that means is it's the end of one world picture and everything to learn in relation to that electromagnetic mechanistic world picture. But now this whole world picture of reality that underlies it, is as yet unexplored.

Student a: It's like kirlian photography and acupuncture

Bill: All of that.

Eva: One of the interesting things about the jet stream is that it moves faster than the earth's surface in the direction west to east and Dr. Reich's whole postulate about the orgone energy envelope is that it moves faster than the earth west to east and that this is in contradistinction to the old puzzles about the ether because the old puzzle about whether light lagged in the direction of the earth's motion rested on the idea that the ether would drag and move slower than the earth's surface and there would be a friction set up. The whole point is that Dr. Reich saw it more in terms of a faster motion at than the center of the earth and the earth's surface rotated slower. The facts that the jet streams exist bear this out because it's not really explained why these streams of air are moving faster than the earth's surface, it confirms and it points towards the fact that Dr. Reich conceptionally had the OR envelope moving faster than the earth.

Student b: When you use the cloudbuster it changes.... Does it change what is negative back into positive or does it bring positive in from someplace else so it isn't negative?

Bill: Wow! I assume it does both. We know that DOR means that orgone energy is stagnant. Once you get movement involved into an orgone stream, the DOR changes to OR again.... In one way when you're operating the DOR removal operation by getting things moving again, the DOR situation will then become an OR situation. Now there's a puzzle.... The other question, there's a puzzlement of which is related to do with the survival of this planet. The fact.... We assume the orgone energy field around this planet is slowly being killed by many things, and we also assume the assumption that the orgone energy of this planet is somehow being supplied by new energy from the greater ocean in some way. There's the possibility you can use the cloudbuster to speed up that re supply, which brings in all sorts of interesting postulations about places on earth where its naturally being supplied like the Bermuda triangle for example and areas like that. As far as I'm concerned it's all in the realm of postulations. Eva, what do you think?

Eva: Very good question. One thing is you really have to experience this freshening. The colors *of the atmosphere* in the distance change from gray to blue. I would say everything perks up, the wind comes up, everything is fresher. This you have to experience really and it is a very basic principle. It isn't explained except due to the fact that when it moves it turns back from DOR to OR. Now with this, I can draw current relations to medicine. You can do the same thing in therapy. The very fact of its moving is all that seems to be required to change the quality. In other words, maybe this stagnant OR energy is DOR. There may not be two different things. Do you think it is or not? Dr. Reich began to think the fact that it was two different energies but maybe DOR is just the absence of motion in the OR.

Bill: And then this change in qualities.... Yeah, I don't know.

Eva: I mean it's a very deep philosophical question. How come getting it moving makes it fresh and alive? It went right back to his original formulations in self regulation where he found that people were stagnating in their own organisms and they had all the symptoms *of disease and neurosis*. And he said "ahh, I found the same thing out in space and it works the same way. I don't know why but it does." And the other question is excellent as to whether there are areas in space from which we can draw in fresh energy. I've thought about that a great deal. Student c: Are there areas in the body where we can bring in fresh energy?

Eva: This is the question, but we don't have any photographs of it and we haven't even measured this thing yet and we can't really know where it is. We know we breathe it in. Right? That's the prana idea.

Bill: And we know we can get it to ourselves through the accumulator.

Eva: And we can get it through our skin and our whole field can absorb.

Bill: But whether there are any particular places....

Eva: I can't answer that. I mean as far as the new theories. They have theories about the pineal being the entry of the place of life. But as far as Orgonomy is concerned we know that in an accumulator your whole organism, where ever your field expands outside, you will absorb and luminate.

Student a: Thinking about black holes in space in relation to the earth.... Would there be any relation to the DOR? They don't really explain black holes in space very well yet. In fact not at all.

Bill: It certainly would be interesting to draw from some of those areas in space. The only thing I can think of we've done in that direction is one time we drew from...when northern lights were on and we drew from the dark areas. And drawing from the dark areas illuminated the whole northern light phenomena. But whether that is any relationship to your question of holes in space, I don't know if those dark areas were holes in space.

Eva: That was a very striking experience.

Student a: Did you ever hit the light areas?

Bill: I didn't work with the light areas for some reason. I don't know why.

Eva: There's the.... My drawing from the dark areas in the sky, the whole phenomena increased and got very...a real dome formed at the time. I don't know. You'd have to try it. The impression was distinctive. Moving the (DOR?) in the same areas where there wasn't any illumination made that area light up. Right?

Editor note: (Students For Orgonomy was a group formed near the date of this discussion. Most of the students were involved with SFO. SFO had a conference in Rangeley in the summer of 1975 and published a newsletter. Roger Hutchinson was the president of SFO and is referred to by Bill Moise during this discussion. Jamerling Ogg was vice-president of SFO and was the co-facilitator with Roger H. of a college course on Wilhelm Reich that these students were taking at this time. Within a year the group SFO was discontinued.)

Bill: Yeah. Speaking of DOR and the dark areas and the cloudbuster, obviously a place one would like to have light areas would be at centers of learning. Perhaps along with the establishment of Students For Orgonomy...why perhaps there could be at the centers of learning some DOR removal operations going on in those areas. And it makes sense. It's hard enough to think and behave rationally in a good atmosphere. When the atmosphere is dorish and dead it makes it doubly difficult to think rationally, and be rational, and function rationally. But if one does, that one has to realize that some dangers involved would be that those sections of academia which thrive on a DOR atmosphere would be irritated and not like this. They like the atmosphere like it is. They feel threatened, so you will provoke their rationality on their part but they're pretty bad anyway so....

Eva: Well, we had that idea when we cloudbusted near the prison when Dr. Reich was in there.

Bill: That's right, yeah.

Student a: That's like the case when she (student b) was in her psychology class asking...someone was in the class asking the professor about parapsychology and the professor always cringed and went on the complete defensive and said "Well we don't talk about that."

Student c: Would you respond to more on when the cloudbuster was near the prison.

Eva: Well, we just did that. We took a cloudbuster near the prison and tried to find a place to locate it. We had a hard time finding a friendly farmer. We never really did find one and put the pipes in the water and I remember being on some... (marsh?) ...with some man who tried to make some rental agreement. Remember that?

Bill: Yeah.

Eva: It didn't really work and we tried to just keep the area fresh. Like you know, protracted drawing motions but not making rain, fortunately, by working on the stuff that's sitting in the valleys and we did that. But it was very difficult because we were living in Washington D. C. and it was 5 hours to drive and we had to make special trips to do this. There was nobody in Lewisburg, Pennsylvania that I can remember that were real friends.

Student b: What do you do different with the freshening as opposed to the rain or do you do just more of it?

Bill: No, no, no, there are special techniques involved in each of these operations: rain making, rain stopping, the hurricane dispersal, fog lifting, and DOR removal. DOR removal is sort of basic to all of them. You must do that first and that's a....

Student a: Does it entail going around the horizon once?

Bill: You can't be mechanical. No, this can't be mechanical. The basic thing is that you want to draw...do your drawing with the natural flow of orgone energy which is from west to east which may entail different movements or different approaches each day according to the day. It's generally...it's.... There's no special spot that you concentrate on. If there is a special spot it would be you do a more...you draw more from the west than you do other places but you can't bring it down to a mechanized operation like that and you have to play it by the conditions of the energy. Sometimes you may feel....

Student a: It could be like getting to know someone emotionally, it varies day to day?

Bill: Yes, and also to...you do it by also knowing some very fundamental natural laws. For example, you can use your binoculars and find a place you can see the flow and you judge the flow by that. You could use your weather reports to give you clues of where there might be a blockage occurring. There might be a blockage occurring to the east of you. So therefore you draw from there first, to kind of loosen that up and it's not a very extended operation. It's just a matter of maybe anywhere from three minutes to maybe 10 minutes, depending on the condition that exists there. And it's a simple operation and...and....

Eva: When you're not in a desert.

Bill: Well, when you're not in a desert. Yes.

Eva: Yes, that's the point that it's specifically in a normally reacting atmosphere.

Student b: What do you do differently in a desert?

Student a: You'd have to do it a lot longer wouldn't you?

Bill: Yeah, you have to do it a lot longer...and....

Student a: You did it for an hour or so at times?

Bill: Oh yeah and then waiting. I mean it doesn't work. It goes on for weeks and weeks and weeks and months and stuff like that.

Student b: Why does it work like that?

Bill: Because umm.... Why doesn't it work in the desert?

Student b: Yeah.

Bill: Well, I think because a desert is just one great big hunk of fantastic DOR that is sitting there and sucking up OR like a bottomless pit.

Eva: Yeah, you can get like we did at...(unintelligible-wrdman)...when we did get above the layer in the desert and then we drew from above it into it. Yeah, you know, we sort of, kind of cut across that black stuff on the horizon of a 9000 foot mountain. That worked. That sort of broke the deadlock there but if you're in it then you can't reach out, nothing happens. Can you?

Bill: When I first started out with this, I had the wrong idea that the cloudbuster and DOR removal and other things were acting like a vacuum cleaner. That's a very mechanistic idea, but I had it, see. And it was only after a lot of experience with it, that I realized what you're working with. You're working with natural phenomena and you are the triggering agent. So when you do DOR removal from a city, you are not doing that. You are triggering off a process that then does it and then it removes the DOR. In other words your cloudbuster is not sitting there sucking up like a vacuum cleaner all the DOR around. You're triggering off a change in potential and it's like...where there's a swamp and a log jam and you're removing one or two logs and then it begins to move some. And the triggering.... You are working with a triggering phenomena that has global aspects to it. And a desert has certain triggering areas we began to find like the barrier and areas like that were....

Student b: Can you work in those areas but not in others?

Bill: Well, it seemed to enhance the whole big process more. In other words, when you worked at these points.

Eva: It's like the desert is encapsulated on this road between two areas. And if you're at the edge, between where it's more normal and gets some rain and where it doesn't get any, it's easier to mobilize things when you're at that cultivated area. And one thing that Students For Orgonomy could do is find 100 islands all over the world in which there are very sharp zones between rain and no rain and then put cloudbusters on these barriers and draw it across. In other words liberate or remove towards the East. This is just an idea that I think would be very interesting to carry out as an experiment.

Student a: Then Hawaii would be a good island that gets rain on one side and the other is just dry?

Eva: Yes, well there are more than Hawaii. This is just something I am throwing out for the future.

Bill: I think also it would be interesting to try cloudbusters at these continental trigger points that you are working on. You know? And try it out with what they found with some of the...you know, like that landing field in Peru that they found that was probably where they speculate that space craft landed...certain points like that. It would be very interesting.

Eva: But one thing that Bill knows is that it is a gentle operation.

Bill: Oh yes...yes...yes.

Eva: And I think the character of the operator has something to do with it. For instance Trevor James Constable is a magician and he enhances storms. It's really what he is doing. He is taking storm clouds that come along and making them more powerful. If you don't DOR remove first you will get some really violent reactions. So that's not good oranur. Like a cloudburst is not what Dr. Reich was aiming for. He aimed for gentle increasing humidity and drizzle rain in the desert which is a very rare phenomena in the desert but he got it. So this worries me. Words don't teach. We have to make a movie of somebody cloudbusting.

Student a: He (Dr. Reich) first worked on moving in the moisture...wasn't it the moist air?

Eva: Yes, but he also removed DOR and kept at it for weeks.

Student a: You went across one of the mountain ranges over towards L. A. a little more and then came back.... And after, you came back to help move it along there.

Bill: No, we kept probing the whole area. And when we first experienced a draw in New York to remove DOR there, I did it very...not gently at all. I wanted to get it out of there and stuff like that...you know. So it created a lot more. I mean sure it came out, but a lot of thunderstorms, a lot of lightning, a lot of very very hard stuff. Then, when I got clobbered enough emotionally, etc., and I realized you do this very gently and very slowly and very softly. You know...then you get it without a resulting catastrophe, without the downpours and everything. It's gentle when it comes down through. Well, it's like you know all the things in the realm of therapy that are really adjuncts of Dr. Reich's. You know the screaming things, the pounding of muscles, and all these knocking things. This hard hard hard approach that in the long run does more damage than it does good. It's not a pinching noise. Eva can tell us. I'm no therapist, I've never done any before but it's not the hard pinching of muscles and stuff like that. It's the gentle triggering aspect. There are certain ground rules you follow but the technique of the whole thing is as yet for all of you. You know if you really work well, it works well. ` Student a: What about its ability to cause tornadoes and stuff?

Bill: I would say it caused tornadoes in this sense. Yeah, if you do it like a Trevor James or like Carlinsky...very hard and military and then barroom! barroom!

Student a: Joel you mean?

Bill: Joel Carlinski?

Student a: Yeah?

Bill: Yes. If you're crazy about doing it or do it that way it's the same thing. Instead of a gentle thing, you're going to break through this. Compare it to therapy. You can get someone to go off like that, can't you, if you go at it boom boom boom, right? That's no big trick. The thing to do is you don't want the patient to die on you while you're saving him...you know. And that becomes that misdirected ego trip thing there...in my mind. Now there's another aspect which does occur...it's when you're operating...when you're cloudbusting you're working with the whole envelope with a ripple effect. It's not just an isolated thing. It's the whole earth envelope in which there are rippling effects. For instance an operation here (Maine) may trigger off an already existing DOR situation say down in Texas or some place like that where it's a potential.... I mean they'll get tornadoes in 2 weeks anyway. What you're doing is by the rippling effect. Rippling effect means you draw here and you change the potential here and that has sort of a bouncing effect because a potential change here causes a potential change over there. It ripples along that way. So you may trigger off say a tornado around Texas where the situation is just ripe for it there. The assumption is a tornado potential exists because there's a terrific DOR condition there and this is bursting through. Now, because in all of this, I'm basically not a scientist. All I am is a cloudbuster operator with some knowledge and experience. I'm basically an Artist. I am not precise in the whole scientific realm but a lot of these things I think are pretty sound.

Eva: One of the ways that you know you are bringing up DOR is that you get a slight breeze. Right?

Bill: Oh yes.

Eva: Like stroking an animal. It feels like that. And the response, the breeze comes back at you. So you draw more from the areas you get a slight wind from if it's very still and stagnant. Another way you know you are reacting is because the wind is your flow. No?

Bill: Yes

Eva: Do you begin to see it right away?

Bill: Not necessarily. No. It depends on the time of the year. Like this time of the year when it's very cold, it's not. You can't see it as well. If it's warm at least here you can. But see that's one thing that's needed and what I hope will come in the future is more objective instrumentation to measure these things. Right now a great deal of it as far as cloudbusting goes is subjective, responding, and feeling which is valid work. But if you can have some objective measurements going on with it, it would be a lot better.

Student a: You could be using the objective, but you can also get kind of mechanistic in trying to use it.

Bill: True, you can get that way.

Student a: It should be a combination of the two.

Bill: Absolutely, it should be.

Eva: Dr. Reich had binoculars set up permanently in the direction of south, pointed at a mountain crest, and this was his basis. He always saw which direction it was flowing. In the desert (southwestern USA) he saw very erratic flow, where it would flow a few minutes this way and a few minutes that way. You could see pulsation and you knew it could be circular or it was any old way. And that was his decision. But in the East (eastern USA) he saw very definitely the reversal before rain. If you saw it here, in this area...if you see it flowing east to west you know you are going to get rain. And it may go for several days and you get several days and you get several weeks of rain. You know like we've had it?

Bill: Yeah. Yeah.

Eva: Like if it flows for 6 days east to west, then we get 5 weeks of rain. It means something.

Student a: Why does it flow east to west? What causes it to reverse direction? Do you have any idea what might cause it?

Eva: Well naturally it apparently balls up into balls of weather systems.

Bill: Any strong weather systems will draw the energy towards them, to a higher potential, from the weaker to the higher.

Student a: Oh, right.

Eva: You know we are all rotating pretty fast on this earth's surface. A maybe just when we overtake it, it looks like it reverses direction. It could be it just slows down. Could it be that it's not really reversing? Just a thought. If we move faster than it's moving.... The orgone is moving west to east like this...and we're moving this fast (faster than the orgone for a short time) and it may look like it's turning around. Maybe it's (the orgone flow) just slowing down. And it's just a thought.

Student b: Is it like retrograde planets?

Eva: Yeah, retrograde planets. When you look at it, it looks like it's flowing the other way. Maybe it's just something like that. We don't really know because all we have is this phenomena of the light being refracted and it looks like something is flowing.

Bill: Does this interest you two?

Student e: Yeah.

Eva: So, somebody ought to really study this flow over a long period of time like Dr. Reich did. And it may be that in different areas of the world like the southern hemisphere it's different. All we know is this is what happened in Maine and in the desert it wasn't so.

Bill: Now Trevor James is a guy that is operating out in the West that...

Student b: How did he get into that any way?

Bill: God only knows. The devil only knows...(laughter)...Any way he postulates that Dr. Reich was just 100 percent wrong. For example he says instead of drawing from an area you should draw from the other place. He said Dr. Reich made some insights but he was just completely wrong in this way, that it's the opposite. He's (Trevor) screwed up. It doesn't work that way.

Student b: He's the guy who causes the very heavy orgone energy stream or whatever?

Bill: Yes, yes. So.... And Roger Hutchinson was confused because he read that too. So he didn't know what the devil we were doing here. And Trevor James in his book doesn't give any reason, any scientific basis for this conclusion and it was published. And he (Reich) never said it. That is not the way it works.

Student a: Did he (Trevor) think it went the other direction, the whole flow and everything?

Bill: He didn't say anything about the flow. All he says is the area where you point the pipes from...instead of drawing orgone energy, what it's really doing is shooting orgone energy out. That's what he is saying. That's just a 100 percent wrong. I bring that out now cause he influenced Roger and Roger was confused.

Eva: There's a question on my mind cause when Dr. Richard Blasband had automated his cloudbuster in Oxford, Pennsylvania and electronically so he doesn't have to stand near it. Now being electrical, it must have a motor, right? Maybe you're getting an oranur effect and maybe that effect reverses what he does. That's maybe part of...huh?

Bill: Yes, that's possible...that's possible, but yet has to.... You can't just say possible and publish a paper on the fact that it is so.

Student a: How would he be getting an oranur effect from just a motor running by electricity?

Eva: Because of the electricity that runs the motor.

Student a: Do you think the electricity would have caused that?

Editor note: (If orgone is pre-atomic or before matter then to compare it to static electricity might be an error. It might be better put, that the static electricity should be considered only a secondary reaction to a blocked orgone energy flow as armor is a result of blocked energy flow.)

Eva: Rather than confuse the issue, I just want to say that when somebody asks me about the cloudbuster, I say it's a modified lightning conductor. So the basic principle that we know is that we are grounding the static in the atmosphere quote quote "static" gently right? And there is something to this because when...since Dr. Reich did not have thunderstorms over the observatory for many years.

Bill: Oh, we don't.... Since I've been operating for the last year we had one little tiny thunderstorm. That's all. It's....

Eva: This physicist, Adolph Smith has a chart that I don't have, but it shows that the frequency of thunderstorms on the east coast has gone down dramatically since 1951. If you look at the frequency of thunderstorms right now on the east coast, there's some evidence that this really did something.

Student c: What is the purpose of eliminating the number involved in thunderstorms in a particular area.

Eva: Well, there's a sign that the energy as static is piled up to a great amount and then it discharges violently. And thunderstorms do damage, they start fires for instance, they are frightening and cause cloudbursts and why not.... And people are wounded. In other words the whole aim of oranur weather control as I see it, is to have a gentle harmonious weather all over the earth. What is happening by itself due to DOR emergency is the dying of the life energy. And the weather is getting very inharmonious: too hot, too cold, too dry, too wet, too violent...you know. And mankind will do better with harmonious, gentle, and equal-grated weather. Right?

Student c: I see.

Eva: You know, I feel that there's a purpose in eliminating thunderstorms.

Student d: Don't they use comparable charges in electricity to create life as such in laboratories? I'm not sure what they are called. And this was theorized to be the initial forms of life on earth, caused by thunderstorms.

Eva: Ah yeah.... Well, the idea if you put a discharge through a broth of amino acids you get these little spherical life forms. That has actually been done. So maybe it had a function but as far as I'm concerned thunderstorms destroy property and make life difficult to have many thunderstorms. And we do know that we can break up energy systems. For instance, we have drawn from a waterspout that we saw in the distance, and we drew its energy and it dissolved. We really haven't actually tested this in a tornado but I think we could prevent tornadoes by simply keeping a clear horizon. Right? You know?

Bill: I think so, yes.

Eva: And you can certainly draw from hurricanes and gently take the fizz out of them at a long distance. Yes?

Student c: Can you try to stop them?

Bill: Oh yeah.

Eva: But not when they are upon you. You have to do this when they are 800 miles away and you're directing your pipes at the center. And you can feel the charge and you can get very overcharged. You very gently keep one or two pipes, just a few, drawing gently over a long period of time. Right?

Bill: Yeah.

Student a: Oh so you did that with hurricane Edna?

Eva: Yeah. This is not when the hurricane is already a system in your vicinity. You are outside the system when you are doing it.

Student b: What would happen if you waited until it was upon you?

Bill: Nothing.

Eva: Well, you could also probably enhance a hurricane, I would think, if you drew in the wrong direction.

Student a: With Edna you had a huge amount of rainfall that fell.

Bill: Yeah, that was my error.

Eva: Yeah, that was a close call back in 1954.

Student a: That was your error?

Bill: Yeah.

Student a: How so?

Bill: We had followed Dr. Reich's instructions, we had already dissipated Edna and she headed out. I was you know feeling kind of ego stuff and so I figured well.... And there was another kind of something brewing down in the gulf. So I figured well, on my own I'll just draw from the west some to increase the east to west flow and that will in itself...will go ahead and keep this other one from coming up. So I did that without consulting with Dr. Reich. Instead of that, what I did by drawing from the west, I just drew in all this energy in back of a dying hurricane. So it just flooded the whole Connecticut Valley and killed about fifty people. I got hell for it and I should of too.

Eva: This gentle draw from a system like that with one or two pipes grounded over a long period of time. Not all pipes open and moving it. Right? A static....

Bill: Umm, huh. Slow kind of, right?

Student a: What did hurricane Carol at that time have to do with it? Cause those two were almost next to each other. Carol and Edna?

Bill: I can't recall. I have a very leaky brain. (laughter)

Student a: It's all right.

Student e: You're talking about those hurricanes that came up pretty far that year, right?

Student a: I'm talking about back in 1954.

Student e: Right, and I can remember. I think it was Donna.

Student a: No, no, no, Donna was in 1960, it's quite a few years later. I'm speaking way before that. I wasn't even around. My father was out on an island on the coast and it was Carol and Edna and they came right beside each other. One had just come up and the other one came right after it so they almost had two hurricanes in the same vicinity at the same time.

Bill: It must be the same....

Student e: I was in Massachusetts at the time and I remember that.

Student a: Well, it was Donna. Donna was a very bad storm in the 60s and came up and did quite a bit of damage.

Eva: I wonder if it is.... You are creating a counter storm if you draw from a hurricane and lure it here. You get a stronger potential in a 180 degree direction so that is the counter storm. And do that gently so that the counter storm doesn't flood things. That is the trick. Until you get rain you got drizzling or mild rain...we didn't want huge downpours. I don't think we know the whole story.

Bill: Oh my god, no.

Eva: I want to utter the fact that when we were in the desert we had these few rains that were engineered but there was also weeks and weeks and weeks of drawing when nothing happened until Dr. Reich found this thing about the barrier. Why would the clouds lie on the landscape? To me it was always like they were lying on a bed of DOR that drank up the moisture. So.... The technical problem is that the DOR goes into people that are operating. Right?

Bill: Well, that's one technical problem.

Eva: That makes them sick.

Bill: Drawing from hurricanes very often will make you feel very bad.

Eva: The first arm of a hurricane is very dark and black. There seems to be two arms moving in a hurricane but any way the black arm makes it feel very bad but usually when you first draw from a hurricane, where you are becomes extremely stagnant, black pressing bitter kind of atmosphere. Right?

Bill: Yeah. It's a very fledging.... It's a very fledging science and we know very very little. That's why somebody like Carlinsky who says I can get a cloudbuster and go to the Sahara and save the Sahara is full of baloney. He can't. Nobody can I know. The thing is if you went to the Sahara, you would have to go there with several cloudbusters, strategically place them, spend weeks if not months just studying and finding out and....

Student a: And how it works in the area?

Bill: How it works, how it does that, and probe gently and that's up to two or three years before you could begin to significantly affect things. So these people that you know go around.... Sure the potential is there just like the potential once the Wright brothers got off the ground. Sure someday they will be flying from New York to Paris in three hours. Sure, but that didn't mean that a week after the Wright brothers got of the ground someone would go to Paris in three hours.... Yes...(pause in tape).... Somebody forgot to zoom across there. So I think that is.... See one of the things in this is puzzling...which is very puzzling is how the hell do you tell the crackpots in these things...you know. Sure you know the cloudbuster works good.... Like the Murder of Christ (book by Wilhelm Reich) you promise freedom, you promise this.... I think that is the.... To me it's a clue that the guy is a crackpot then. He promises freedom for everybody, heaven for everybody, solves the Sahara problem tomorrow. Things like that. It's a....

Student a: It's a politician.

Bill: Well, he's out of touch with the reality of the situation. Which brings me to the point that I feel about.... We are talking about the cloudbuster, the reality of orgone energy which is..... My feeling is that this discovery is the discovery of the life energy and not just another philosophy, not just another way of life as Dr. Reich puts it. There's a lot of confusion. The more I hear, the more confused I get. There's a lot of, you know, the guru here, this thing there, that thing there, this thing all over and they all have apiece of truth in them. And Dr. Reich himself, I think it should be remembered that all he said he ever discovered was the natural law of life energy. That gravity is the natural law, that it does not exist equally, that over here an apple can go up and over here an apple can go down, but gravity does exist as a form of natural law.

Student a: Shall we go take a walk outdoors?

Bill: You want to go see the accumulator and the cloudbuster?

Student b: I got another question.

Bill: OK.

Student b: Like in Peter Reich's book (Book of Dreams) he was saying that it makes you feel really bad after you have used the cloudbuster. But how do you know what it is doing to yourself?

Eva: Sometimes it makes you feel good. The freshening kind of thing. It depends what you are drawing. And we would feel awful in the desert. It would dry eyes. We felt overpowered.

Bill: Yes.

Eva: We felt like we were in a big thunderstorm pressing on you. It felt...aching muscles, headaches, a feeling to explode, irritable, very full solar plexus, salty, bitter, dry, all sorts of things.

Bill: Yeah. Most of Peter's experience in drawing was at Orgonon, wasn't it?

Student a: He did some in the desert. He mentions doing it with you on...use of the circle motion on an Ea.

Bill: Yeah that's right.

Eva: What worries me is that we really don't have any photography of shortly after drawing...really don't have very much visually. And if you're working, a lot of times the visual aids are not very good. The state of the art, right?

Bill: It's a fledging science. The whole instrumentation has just yet to be developed.

Student c: You're so dependent on so many factors.

Bill: Yes.

Student c: You bring to it, only a limited control in a sense.

Eva: Well, I do know, subjectively, it felt like you were drawing from a big animal. This thing is alive and when we drew over the barrier in the desert, that was the prime sensation. Right? Like stroking a big sleeping animal. You do get treated after you do cloudbusting for a while until it's alive and responds and is healthy and answers back with a wind or freshening of the whole air.

Bill: Ah huh, Oh yeah, sure.

Eva: You are in relationship but this is all very subtle. I can't put that into words.

Bill: And I've had mechanistic physicists who have come here and tried to operate it, you know, and they did terrible, they're horrible, they're lousy you know. They are wooden and stiff and can't sense anything. They are useless.

Student a: That made me think of thunderstorms. Before a thunderstorm, I was in a building in Boston once. I just felt, wow. There's something coming, something big coming, big thunderstorms...got to be. You could feel it in the air that whole static discharge type of feeling in the air. I can't describe it. It's hard to describe.

Bill: Yeah.

Student c: I know.

Student a: The feeling you get just before a snow storm or thunderstorm is just incredible. Especially big ones when they are really dark. There was one this past summer.

Bill: Yeah.

Student a: The one they said they had a tornado out of up in the Bridgeton area. That was incredible watching that storm go through. It was dark, dark green, the clouds.

Bill: Yeah, I remember that, cause that was during a trip when I went to New Hampshire.

Student a: July 4 or around that date.

Bill: Yeah, I was giving an art talk right in the middle of it and all the windows were open. Everybody got up to run out to get their cars. Right in the middle of the talk. So I remember that well, yeah. But in relationship to that.... That is, I think what Dr. Reich means in his functional books. Functionalism, in other words is a scientist using the senses, all the body senses for the tools of science as well as thinking and theorizing. Use your observation and sensing etc. yeah. And to me the thought occurred just a few nights ago that this is probably what is meant in the bigger sense when Dr. Reich says "Love, Work, and Knowledge". That by love, he does not only mean human being genital to genital, but rather this love is the state you use your senses, your whole body in the process of living. Particularly in science. Yes, It involves the senses.

Eva: I just would say. I have a memory of him climbing on a cloudbuster that was on a truck in the rain and a thunderstorm was coming and thunderheads were full of lights. Remember that?

Bill: Yeah.

Eva: It was very dangerous even though the lightning was going to hit you, and Wilhelm up there and you were drawing from up there and it didn't lightning and didn't thunder. So it was a real black collection and it was dark in the rain and petered out. We had enough concrete events like that. In other words you can now weaken a bulged together system whatever the size is. Right?

Bill: Yeah, but you can't weaken a hurricane when a hurricane is down on top of you. Well, when it's down in Portland (Maine) or someplace like that.

Eva: Well, if you saw the kind of erratic, windy, gusty, black weather that precedes a tornado. Right?

Bill: Oh, sure you can start to do something. Oh certainly.

Eva: And see raggedy black clouds with small funnels that are beginning to get down. You could, we don't know, probably it could degrade the atmosphere and ground it enough that it wouldn't.

Student a: It's probably the same thing on a lightning rod on a house...a cloudbuster.

Eva: Well, this is what I say. It's a modified lightning conductor except you use it in a directional manner and you have the hole in the center of the rod and your grounding into water because that works better than dirt. The earth works too.

Student c: Is there a.... Does DOR work at all in this way? Is there a possibility of having an environment where there isn't stagnant energy. In other words, you know, none totally for everyone.

Eva: I think that it will be on Earth. I mean I'm dreaming ahead. I see a.... You know, a place that everything is like Hawaii where they have a nice....

Student a: Oh, I don't think so.

Eva: You don't think so?

Student a: No.

Student c: Do you think things started out with the DOR?

Eva: It's a very good question. According to present day climatology, earth was surrounded by thunderstorms and violent weather catastrophes and....

Bill: That's only a hypothesis.

Eva: Well, all we know is that on bodies in space that are dead like Mars and the Moon, the temperature differences are tremendous, like it gets too hot and too cold.

Bill: That's with no atmosphere.

Eva: And our atmosphere shields us. In the deserts the contrasts are so much greater. In the deserts, the days are very hot, the nights are very cold, and it seems to be in need of fresh OR, because the deserts, if you look at them from space, they are like brown moth holes in this beautiful blue fresh OR envelope around the earth...you know.

Student a: I can bring a book in the classroom of NASA, that took pictures of earth. I've got one of these books.

Eva: I want that book. I want the records too. That book, I need it.

Student a: You want that book to use?

Eva: Ah huh. OK, it shows the deserts are not...don't look the same from space. They are brown and look sort of earthy or grayish brown color. And that blue which is the OR envelope is not visible in the deserts which means that we are looking at the DOR pockets from space. Right? No? So you haven't even said on which side you are agreeing on.

Bill: Yeah.

Eva: So there's the secret there. And I can see from space that the earth could also be that blue. The moth eaten appearance could be removed and be made whole again. Yes, in that sense.

Student a: That's one of the first comments of astronauts going up. "It's like a big blue jewel."

Student c: I lived on a mountain in Arizona for two years above 8000 feet and the storms were the most violent violent...the most violent violent...the most violent violent thunderstorms seen in all Arizona above 8000 feet that I have ever witnessed and I just.... The pressures and all the kind of feelings that came from that were frightening.

Bill: Ah huh.

Editor note: (There was a pause as a globe was fetched for Eva to show some more about deserts.)

Student a: So that's in Africa.

Eva Here's the desert in southwestern Africa, and here's the desert in north Africa, and here's the Sinai peninsula of Arabia, and it's all very peculiarly round. And here I guess is Madagascar which I don't know but that part of it is pretty much round. And the question is, what happens here, you know.... It's not blue and there are no clouds cause it's brown. You see that on all the satellite photos. We have to study that now. What are these deserts? What are these barriers here? This is what we have to study. Is that common? Does it change with the seasons? And I think that's.... These are the trigger points where I would put a cloudbuster. Right?

Student a: The curious thing is that almost all the photographs, that they spent most of their time on in the first aircraft, were all deserts. That they were taking pictures of deserts as opposed to green areas on earth.

Eva: You mean in those satellite pictures?

Student a: Yeah. No, in the astronaut pictures.

Eva: Oh the astronauts.

Student a: When the astronauts were going up. The book I have was on the 4th and 5th Gemini. All the pictures in the whole book were basically desert areas they were taking pictures of a lot of the southwest of America and a lot of Africa desert areas. And very few of the areas were green areas. They were all brown, at least the ones they were taking pictures of.

Eva: I hate to hog the scene, but I see that this kind of photograph could be time lapsed and we would then see how these weather systems move and whether there are zones where they don't penetrate and how come. And this is what Dr. Reich observed at the edge at the barrier where the clouds just sort of dried up. As they came over this edge, it wasn't just that they deposited their moisture as they came across this crest and just disappeared. It looks to me like you are having something like that here (looking and pointing to a satellite photo). Right? So this is the kind of study.... You know it leads to a world wide.... And if you look at the earth as a whole then you can't really think of cloudbusting in terms of a local phenomena. You have to think in terms of chains to draw the stuff across, basically, you know.

Bill: Yeah. Until you get to that point you could think of that whole ball. (Referring to the globe) (laughter)

Eva: Oh yeah, and I'm dreaming of it. But if you are talking about studies, the first thing you have to look at is the earth from the point of view of these DOR pockets. And obviously....

Student a: You can get really good pictures of the earth...or you can get them released from NOAA because everyday they are doing that. The progression is from the satellites every day watching the cloud movements on the earth.

Eva: There are some time lapsed photos with....

Student a: They take it every half hour and every hour and they show you where the weather patterns move.

Bill: I want to live to the day, to be able to be cloudbusting, when I get half hour weather pictures, you know. It would be fantastic!

Eva: Earth wise?

Bill: Anywise, anywise, come on. (Slight laughter)

Eva: Now it's the consciousness of whether it's an earth wise phenomena. You need to have an instamatic check and start with the local weather report. Historically it's interesting, because the first thing that Franklin accomplished was to realize that weather moves, you know, and that was where the weather bureau came in. You realize then that it's a moving thing but the consciousness hasn't reached to see it as global.

Student a: Wasn't he also one of the first on this planet with lightning rods.... I mean Franklin.

Student d: It's a curious thing that he worked with those things.

Student b: Kites, strings and keys.

Eva: Bill, I'm fascinated by how come the atmosphere is so translucent over the desert because when we look from below, it's all blinding light or when we look from above down, there's a black layer over it. Right? Is it just the absence of moisture that makes it so brown or is it something else. The same question with OR and DOR>

Bill: Yeah.

Student a: Why wouldn't it look black from above as opposed to being.....

Bill: And melanor and stuff...you know? The whole thing with melanor and the whole chemical.

Eva: The whole thing is that these are taken with filters. There isn't a single photograph that doesn't have golden...because look you don't see the zone of atmosphere around the earth.

Student a: Yeah. You don't see it on that but you do get it on other pictures they get from Apollo in those NASA books.

Eva: And one of the first things that the astronauts.... I have a picture from a National Geographic, when Glenn was going around the earth, you know. He saw that there was a black layer. He reported this world wide. A black zone and so we have to sort of play around with filters and see which ones will show us these phenomena the best. Right?

Student a: Yeah. On some of the pictures I have, you can actually see that. You can see the layer of blue on the edge of the earth. Like when they took some pictures, when the sun was going around the edge of the earth, and they were spinning on the other side, they could see the sun going down over it. When they were working in that one area, the blue's thickness would vary on its height. You could see earth in different places. The blue would rise up higher and lower in different places in the pictures.

Student e: Has anyone done any postulating on what the sunspots...and the bearing they may have on that.

Student d: The sunspot does show up as black and they have yet to figure out what it exactly is. And at other times they have also found other spots in the sun that aren't really visible without the aid of a certain type of filter and these are extra bright spots on the sun. And both of them have an effect on the earth's atmosphere. It's just recently that they've found the bright spots. And at the same time they came up with an idea that the one spot on the surface of Jupiter is a sort of desert.

Eva: That the red spot on Jupiter could be a desert? Now that is really intriguing.

Editors note: (The red spot is now believed to be a large storm in Jupiter's atmosphere.)

Student a: Umm.... I didn't know that either.

Student d: Do you know Jupiter has a lot of rings on it or cloud rings with this one red spot....

Eva: But umm. It would be, for instance, interesting to take these satellite photographs during some big operation that you are doing and it really should show something from space.

Bill: It should.

Eva: There's a tool.... You talk about tools and the trouble is that the space science of today is a mechanistic space science and it hasn't hooked up with Orgonomy. And we are very weak, we don't have the tools that they have. Right?

Student a: We don't have the money and all it's knowledge.

Eva: Yeah, but the question is just as valid. What would the satellite photography show? Let's say we made a rain making operation over the El central barrier, you know.

Student b: Could you explain? I don't know...really understand how oranur works.

Student a: Oranur is when you take a radium needle and put it in an accumulator and.... And the term they gave to it was oranur after it changed its character.

Bill: Oranur was the reaction of the atmosphere.... The reaction of concentrated orgone energy to the induction of this small amount of nuclear material. And that reaction is the oranur reaction and it can be going on in many places. Probably the same thing as a large amount of radium being introduced into a small amount of orgone energy. Is that correct Eva? Would that create an oranur reaction or would it be different?

Student a: It would be different....

Bill: Comments? Erase that. (laughter)

Eva: What do you think is in the future for this whole field?

Bill: Well is the earth going to survive or not? Let me ask you that. If the earth survives, why obviously this will have a fantastic future. It seems like Dr. Reich is a.... When he said that one system of thought being...when it becomes bankrupt it makes chaos and dissidence. But only because from the bankruptcy does the new system arise anyway. So obviously I think we are in the stages of bankruptcy of this long, long electromagnetic mechanistic world picture. It is in a state of beginning collapse. So when it collapses, why then this whole new understanding of the cosmic life energy functioning will develop and fly. That's the most optimistic view.

Eva: One thing that helps us is the climatologists are warning that the earth's food reserves are dwindling because the earth is getting more heat. They are more conscious of the delicate balance in which our civilization takes place.

Bill: The whole energy question, although, is not as wide as the big scope you mentioned. However the energy question has come to the fore. No one talked about it, they weren't concerned about energy 10 years ago or even 20 years ago. The whole energy thing, the whole population thing and the whole question of quality versus quantity of life. I mean all those things are coming to the fore. Twenty years ago life was not concerned with that.

Student c: I think cyclical. People are really beginning to look at the cyclical forces of life, rather than life having a beginning and end.

Bill: Yeah.

Student c: Life just goes and you have to reap the pleasure inside yourself and provide to our whole world and people just aren't.... And crazy men who arm the services, they just keep coming and coming. We have to look at ourselves and our environment.

Student a: When we were taught the English language it was really kind of hard too. We were always taught the opposite things. We were taught this is black and this is white. We were taught this word or the antonym of the word. I got that idea from the book Eternal Massage. Did you read that or some of that?

Bill: I didn't get that.

Student a: That was the name of a book.

Bill: Yeah. I know but I just didn't get you.

Student a: We are always learning the opposites, whereas from a reality situation everything is not an opposite. It is a continuing between.

Bill: Ah well, then you are a symbol. There are opposites but from the opposites come.... There are psyches and many underlying them. They both come from the same thing so opposites do exist but the sameness is yourself sometimes. Just as the wave exists and the particle exists, they are opposites yet they are the manifestation of the basic energy function. Yes?

Eva: If you had...were given infinite manpower and funds, how would you go about applying this on earth.

Bill: I would follow a dead theme...(laughter)

Eva: Let your imagination roam if you can. What would you do?

Bill: What would I do?

Eva: Yes

Bill: Well, the most pressing problem is first reviving the life energy atmosphere and the DOR coming out. You would set up cloudbuster stations for de-desertification. You set up cloudbuster stations at the trigger points, like the Northeast is the trigger point in the United States. To set up some cloudbuster stations, you have them all interconnected. You have satellite photos every 10 minutes in USA. Have a...find some places on the west coast, you have some there, one or two stations.... You could probably do it with 2, 4, 6...with six cloudbusters.

Eva: How about chains around the earth every 60 degrees?

Bill: OK.

Eva: Or every 3 hours of time different zones.

Bill: OK, you know more about that so I can consult you about where to put these in. OK?

Eva: How would you legislate?

Bill: What do you mean legislate?

Eva: I mean, so the thing doesn't become chaos. That is everyone isn't drawing in different directions.

Bill: You don't legislate first. The primary thing is to.... Oh, you mean legislate. You have all these coordinators. Sure, yeah. You give me unlimited power. Remember?

Eva: Yes, (Laughter in the room)...you would need some sort of legislative power to control what is being done.

Bill: Well, I don't care, you just gave me the power. I gave...it's.... Sure, you have to coordinate it.

Eva: So you feel that really all the present....

Bill: And then you would also tap...or explore how to bring in energy from the atmosphere. That would be the first thing to do as I see it. Ah, because that's a priority in a fire you...You don't teach fire education in the middle of a fire necessarily. Right away you put the fire out, that's there first. And to me that's the first priority: to refreshen the whole earth envelope. At the same time you can go ahead then with..... Then the obvious next thing would be children and infants. Yeah cause the only reason you are doing this whole thing is for the children and infants. I mean that's a..... That idea of infants of Reich's is there. That's illustrated by the fact that Reich left his whole legacy, all his knowledge, all his books, all his archives, and everything else... not to some society, not to some university, not to some dumb organization but he left it to the Infant Research Fund. It's the whole focus. He worked on trying to do everything possible so that infants aren't screwed up before they start.

Eva: Yeah. How about a chain of cloudbusters at the equator or around the earth? Wouldn't that be a logical first place to put them in just to keep it (orgone energy stream) going west to east nice and freely. And what does that have to do with the trade winds and what's happening?

Bill: Obviously that's something you would do. Sure.

Student e: If the conditions ever exist in time...like if civilization got to the point where all the clouds die. We hope we approach that without that effect. How would it be freshened?

Bill: Oh, if cloudbusters were at all homes.

Student e: What if that civilization became more in tune with life energy so the direction the whole world was in that condition, the human condition wise rather than physical wise and we are more human.

Bill: You mean working on human wise first and then the physical? As far as I'm looking, it's the entire time factor like the household fire. So you put out the fire first before you educate the people how to stop the fire. That's my point of view. I may be entirely wrong but that's.... And there are certain things that substantiate it. For example, when we first started our rain operations an hour was a long time or a half an hour. Now for the same amount of work there's three hours at the minimum. And when you first began to fly you saw this black layer, not just a few thousand feet high and maybe not all over. And this is substantiated by flyers, by flyers like Arthur Godfrey. I have not always flown but I remember the first time. Those early flyers when they flew, they could see where the hell they were going. Now flyers ignore this black layer and call it smog. Now I have to do so much with this because of this black stuff called smog. And it's obscuring airports that I used to fly in easily. He didn't talk about just Boston and New York. He talked about everything...ah...so...um. That's just how I feel towards the situation and...granted I agree with you. The fundamental of having an everlasting effect, is going to be children working with things so that human beings can grow up in accordance with the natural law. And being more rational than we would ever allow them to be, etc., so that this would never happen again. It wouldn't do any good to put out a fire and have the same people come back in and still burn trash in the fire place to the extent that the house catches on fire again. So, it would be useless to do it without that. But this time factor is boy.... Let's see, I'm given unlimited power. I can influence the weather a lot easier than I can do with a tree of bees. (laughter)

Student e: Yeah. Well, that kind of power seems like.... Roger was talking about these people, that if they have power, this knowledge you know, it will....

Bill: Well, wait a minute. Let's say the power means that you have the facility to do it. The power in the fire situation.... The power means you have all the fire trucks you can use and the knowledge how to use these fire trucks. That gives you the power to put out the fire, that's all. Power in that sense, not power in the usual sense of the way you think of power in politics. Does power mean knowledge?

Student e: It would have to be political power also just because of the conditions that exist in this country for everyone and they're not trying to prevent all this weather world wide. That would be just amazing power that the United Nations doesn't have.

Bill: Oh yeah. I keep postulating now that you gave me all of that.

Eva: I'm going also to stop atom bomb explosions either underground or in the air.

Bill: Would you make a good dictator or a benevolent one?

Eva: I'm being.... I would like to be the power behind the fellow.

Bill: Ah, no responsibility. Ah huh. (laughter)

Eva: Ah...No, very seriously, I would stop by edict all nuclear bomb explosions.

Bill: But I think this...I think this...I think this is that a.... When you hit the right trigger points with a cloudbuster...I mean with a fantastic lack of equipment and lack of...you can accomplish so much. I mean with one cloudbuster you can affect all of New England...you know. And with increased knowledge and maybe if you went to the right place you could affect even bigger areas. So....

Student e: The correlation to that is Transadental Meditation. The guru of TM-Marharashi, says that as soon as 1 % of the world is meditating the same effect will happen. There's a certain kind of energy or influence that will spread in the fact that it's started. You know, you have a fusing every 60 degrees at every place around the globe with anything. Like you meditate in the morning and evening, and theoretically at a certain place at a certain time um.... A lot of people will be meditating, so that 24 hours a day there will be this...whatever this condition, these synchronized brain waves, this energy...whatever. As soon as 1 % of the population is doing that, then it will radiate like a trigger. It will accomplish what he calls his world plan. Understand?

Bill: Yeah, Yeah. Well, for the most part it's all right but Dr. Reich didn't pull something out of his hat. It's a basic and natural law, the observation of all the energy, the fact that cloudbusting will influence some sort of things and like that. But no one may be right. Well, for me, Reich makes more sense in being a history of a good science and tangible. You know...things of discovery that lead on and on and on. Um...so I a.... So, that's why I prefer Reich. You know because it's the beginning of unfolding of fantastic, children fantastic facts and fantastic.... Well, where it's going to lead, is it's going to lead to interplanetary travel, the whole anti-gravity thing is there and so that's why.

Student e: Well, I wasn't talking about one or the other. I'm talking about the fact that they are both passing together.

Bill: Well, that's why.... What I was saying, was that ah...before that...that I'm sure.... Sure I'm sure that what he's saying is what he is feeling if what he was feeling is true and everything but also, he got to work with human beings. What he doesn't know.... He doesn't know one person that's.... Do you all meditate? Trevor James may meditate in a way and different reactions may come out because of the structure of the human beings that are meditating. An armored person meditating might give off yucky stuff.

Student e: Yeah, I wasn't also.... I was just being specific with him (guru Marharashi) and I was talking about the movement in general.

Bill: Oh, I see, the general tendency to....

Student e: The general tendency of people to clear...getting more and more into this world view of humanity. This is more peaceful...like Eva was taking about a weather situation of loneliness.

Bill: Oh yes and larger, larger.

Student e: People with the influence of the eastern philosophies, religion, meditation techniques, etc., are getting into a harmonious human thing.

Student a: World wide and aesthetic man.

Bill: Yes.

Student e: So together....

Bill: OK, I raise.... My hackles got raised because I feel.... No, I feel a great deal of harm is being done to Reich by the introduction of so much from the East that it becomes mystical in that sense. You know? And I feel that it's um.... I feel this harm is being done to the essence of Orgonomy very often.

Student e: It's very often true because especially in that one meditation technique, it's extremely...it's becoming extremely scientific. Like a lot of their um...propaganda or whatever stresses their sanctity. Testing would be recording the alpha waves that show how, you know.,.. Umm....

Student a: That's not TM. Now you're getting into Silva Mind Control and those....

Student e: Oh, and Silva Mind Control. I'm talking about the ones that are scientifically verifiable. And that's why people certainly are going over to them.

Bill: Yeah but it's.... To me it's still...it's still.... It's to much in the realm of electromagnetic mechanistic world picture because they're very imaginative with the work they are using. It's some of the words.... They speak of treatment when using words. Some of the words they use like "lectricity" is a trinket of 20 years ago and not fact. So well, I just...I mean just call me very rational and that's when I do get my hackles up. Cause of that...because of another thing is that a.... In none of that, none of those things that I know about, do they ever speak of how you can raise them, how small children are raised. The focus is not child -- infant based. Am I wrong in that?

Student e: I think it's a bit like a base line, you know, in that if this train of thought were carried by any large combination of 1 % of the population then things could start to triple in theory. Growing up in the environment where your parents would be perceiving a positive impact of this meditation or what ever it is involved in if you want to call it meditation, it is made possible by function, by evolving or something. With this world help, the kids rather than sitting down like my parents and watching boxing matches on television.

Bill: But they're not getting better. I mean positive and in the positive with this picture with positive action. Do they.... Do they have a theory of child development of how we alone screw the kids up in infant stuff.

Student e: I don't think they do. Are we sexually like savages? It's amazing the amount of freedom that is given to the kids. At five and six years old they are allowed to do whatever they want.

Bill: Oh yeah, yeah.

Student e: This is positive for us, isn't it?

Bill: Right. OK, Eastern countries are lousy to their kids.

Student a: They are very disciplined to their kids.

Bill: Well, they create most of their own problems, don't they? But how do they raise them?

Student a: They don't say anything about raising kids in those groups. They are willing to give their meditation to kids 5 years old but they don't have any theory about how to bring up kids.

Bill: See, that's why I like Reich as a concrete approach to the infants, to pregnancy, to birth, to the organism of one year old, two years old, the birth thing, and cutting your toe. It's concrete how this natural function is disturbed, how we disturb it, and to a very...umm.... Maybe your right. Maybe we've cloaked it down. If they want.... We need to have a time priority. Maybe you can't change later.

Editor note: (the group went out again to Bill's art and the accumulator and the cloudbuster.)

Eva: Another operation for the cloudbuster is this harmonizing effect. To probe around the weather with the extreme concept of keeping the air fresh locally so everybody can breathe a little better instead of irritable, and not so much static pressure building up like in the cities. What else? I think...umm...to break down barriers over islands to reverse the extreme DOR waves.

Bill: And to provide a total atmosphere in which the continuous study and knowing of the function of...the function of laws of the life energy can thrive and prosper.

Eva: And to undo the effects of a nuclear bomb explosion because every time they have a...especially in the Pacific, they are upsetting the atmosphere all over the earth...and the clouds.

Student a: They did one this summer.

Eva: Yeah and it really gets very bad and the weather feels very crispless. You can probe it active. It would be much better to avoid exploding these in the first place. And of course with what it is doing, nobody has scientifically admitted that something positive has resulted.

Student a: In fact two or three days after the last one (French A-bomb test in pacific) we had in the summer, there was an affect in this area of a stagnant weather system that got stopped here.

Bill: It's obvious. There's the whole Sahara drought down there and stuff like that. It's a result of the French testing.

Student d: Were the French doing that over in that area? Were they involved?

Bill: Well, I think they've exploded either in 53 or 63.

Student a: Were they doing that in the Sahara desert of Africa?

Bill Through a pact with the South African leadership or something like that. Ten years ago it seems to have been.

Student a: I was wondering, because they say the Sahara desert is increasing 30 miles a year right now southward. That's an annual increase. That's an awful lot that the desert is moving.

Student c: I never could understand the whole thing of exploding part of earth. That just to me in my own limited mind has to have an incredible relationship with the way we relate to each other. How can that not totally in many ways be so disruptive for us. I just....

Bill: It is.

Eva: Well, with the air bombs they realized they were putting strontium 90 into the air. The poisoning effect on the life energy they didn't even consider. Even by their own standards they were putting stuff in the air that shouldn't get into human bodies over long periods of time. And with the underground ones it became a matter of, can we tell whether the others are doing it...so for a matter of detection. Then they found some uses for it like making big cavities in the earth and making passages like canals. There's a whole superstructure in the atomic energy commission that employs thousands of people. All they know is to explode bombs. You're dealing with a tremendous popular..... I recommend a book to you about Lawrence Oppehiemer that I have here that shows you the beginning of this power structure.

Bill: A power structure supported by every physics department in every university in the world.

Eva: So, the tragedy is that the life energy is dying around the earth before we even have acknowledged the ether and orgone and that it is already even less alive than it was 20 years ago and this is Dr. Reich's warning. And this is so tragic to me. And we may end up with something like on mars, where deserts are on some other bodies, seeing if there.... Like maybe once upon a time, there was water there but now there are deserts. So that's what he warned about early desert development.

Student a: Isn't there a thing also on the astronauts that they had a.... I guess you can't really prove it but it's said that they had particles sticking to them.

Bill: Yeah we heard that. I remember seeing it on television. I listened to it. When they first started walking they said "It's sticking to us.".

Student a: Yeah, since then it's just been completely silent as to why that stuck.

Eva: That adhering, probably is a field that we, our bodies, picked up...the particles and stuff. The question here is what we do with our instrumentation. I feel this attractive...this gravitational adhesiveness is.... I have some ideas on that subject in terms of bio-disintegration on the moon because it gets too hot and too cold and the moon dust is very fertile.

Editors note: (the tape ends here even though the group continued for a while more)

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